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Chris Adams's avatar

Those are some lovely pieces!

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David B's avatar

I would really love to see the companion swords to my daggers I show above. Especially the dark one - which I actually think might be English.

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Chris Adams's avatar

It certainly has a north sea vibe with the encrusted silver, is there something about it that tips the balance towards England for you? I was speaking with Florian Fortner the other day, apparently Dresden has a wonderful collection of en suite rapiers and daggers, I want to make the trip as it may be illuminating to see how matchy they are.

Speaking of balance, how dominant is the blade on your originals?

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David B's avatar

Oh yeah - a trip to Dresden is definitely in my future! I'd love to see all their en-suite pieces.

As to my dagger - the shape of the pommel and the quillons, the blackened Iron, and the decorations of the alternating eye and the circle all make me think of pieces I've seen that were Elizabethan-era English. The eye-and-circle in particular reminds me of other decorations I've seen in cloth and furniture. The renaissance England versions of everything - clothing, sword furniture, etc. were just not as elegant as Italian and even German in my view. So it's more of a 'feeling' of the aesthetics than anything I can really point to.

The pob for the forward-swept dagger is 1 cm in front of the quillon block. The pob for the blackened one is about a cm behind the quillon block, on the handle. The pommel on that one is solid, not hollow, and it pulls the weight back onto the handle, despite the blade being 1 cm thick at the hilt.

-but-

Both of the daggers just disappear in the hand. I don't notice pob or even that I'm holding anything much. They become part of my hand.

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Chris Adams's avatar

Thanks for the reply! I know what you mean, in a time of roughly equivalent construction methods picking out national styles can be more of an instinctive flavour than a science. I can see what you mean about this dagger, if I see anything close enough in portraiture etc I'll let you know.

The way your daggers feel tallies with those I've handled, I think the sheer lightness dominates over pob or pivot in design terms. Flick and rotate offline doesn't need as much blade mass as a sword with it's varied leverages.

Enjoyed the article! I do love these small daggers, they are one of my favourite things to make in quiet moments.

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David B's avatar

I love these daggers too. There's one sword type that I'd like to add to my antiques collection - otherwise I'd like to just focus on more en-suite ring daggers.

...when I'm not nervous about being jobless soon, of course...

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Chris Adams's avatar

Yeah fair, it's a deeply unsettling world at the moment.

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Marsdan's avatar

Since I cannot add photos here, I made a note and added photos to the display cases with daggers from The Wallace Collection. People should see a few sail daggers next to ring ones for direct comparison.

Btw, I couldn't agree with you more that Italians started using cup-hilt rapiers just as Spanish did, but using Italian fencing traditions. At this point, I think (!) I can even tell the two apart from a simple glance. Italian cup-hilts have deeper cups and longer grips compared to Spanish ones.

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David B's avatar

Yeah good point - I should have had one or two sail daggers pictured as well.

I have an Italian cup hilt from the mid-late 1600s and you're absolutely correct. Longer handle, bigger cup. Also the blade is pretty short, relatively speaking.

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Marsdan's avatar

You can use a photo from my note and crop it to focus on the daggers (if you can't find a better one).

And if you really want, you can talk in the future about the "Bolognese" use of daggers, the ones with small quillons... in the absence of any quillons to lock the opponent's blade, the entire parry action involves solely the blade. I would assume one would need to be very precise in the action, and sidesword and dagger may be a different beast from the later use of rapier and dagger. But I don't know more.

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David B's avatar

Indeed - I love rapier and dagger, and am pretty effective at it. Sidesword and dagger I've never been all that comfortable with. I prefer single sword or sword and targe when I'm holding a sidesword.

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Marsdan's avatar

At this point, I think we have:

- stiletto dagger, with thin blades meant for stabbing

- "Bolognese" use daggers, with a bit shorter blades, small quillons and a small ring

- ring daggers, as the ones you presented here

- sail daggers, with a sail protection meant for main-gauche use

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David B's avatar

There are also a few extant "Reaver" daggers that have significant hand protection and may be from the early 1600s. I think I've even seen one illustrated in a woodcut.

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Marsdan's avatar

So this would be a dagger with bars and sweeps for protection... a bit like German basket hilts, but for daggers? Would you include the crab-like quillons on daggers in this category?

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Marsdan's avatar

“Reaver” Alehouse Dagger

https://rapiers.darkwoodarmory.com/product/reaver-alehouse-dagger-guard/

Is this what you have in mind?

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David B's avatar

Yup - that's one. I cannot right now find where I've seen an original.

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Chris Adams's avatar

There is a famous one in York, and a few more scattered around in various collections.

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Marsdan's avatar

I found one by accident in the Royal Armouries collection (X.1830)

https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-150823

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David B's avatar

Excellent!

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